heavenscomingdown

N:  So let's see... Now, you live in Ojai, is that right?

BK:  Yes.

N:  What do you love about Ojai?

BK:  What do I love about Ojai?  Stephen chose it.  It's his heart's desire... As soon as he found it, I fell in love and now it's our heart's desire.

N:  That's really nice... today I drove up 33, it's one of these little local highways and it's beautiful —

BK:  — it's gorgeous.

N:  Yea.  So let's see... Today we find ourselves attempting to balance modern life and family and the demands of the world, all the things that are going on. What do you see as the origin of stress?

BK:  We believe our stressful thoughts. We believe thoughts that are not true for us. And only then do we experience stress — while we're believing that thought.

So let's say for example, I have a thought, “He doesn't care about me." And I have all these images in my head to prove it.  And stress happens as a result of that. But when we're thinking, “he cares deeply for me, he's so wonderful," we don't experience stress. We experience feelings, but they feel right. But when we're believing our stressful thoughts, the effect is depression, stress, anger, frustration everything that is not loving and caring is happening in our mind so it shows up in our feelings. If we didn't believe those thoughts, we would simply laugh.

N:  So what would you say is the relationship of visuals? Because sometimes I receive visuals instead of a statement. I see some sort of depressing visual or I see myself in a negative light... is there a way to translate?

BK:  Yes. If you would put those images in the context of a story, and go back and journal it. And circle the concepts that you've journaled. And question them one by one, and turn them around. So you identify the story and question it.

N:  I have some familiarity with the Work. **Melony and Steve H. join the table**

Hi — awesome — you guys joined us... And I'm thinking back to when I first came across the Work. The Work can feel extreme...

BK:  Yes. It is very extreme. **K’s eyes dancing/sparkling** It is extremely extreme. We are confronting our whole identity. We are confronting the entire world in our mind and we believe it to be. So we're questioning the world as we believe it to be so we're questioning the world as we believe it to be and when we do that we lose that world. [Yes] And it leaves us in a state we think we don't know how to deal with. But in truth, we know how to deal with it very well. Because what we're left with basically is “how can I help?" and that's what we love to do, is help each other.

N:  And sometimes you know people run into — welI, I  run into — the idea that hey, at least maybe pain and suffering is a great muse — is a great inspiration — like that's where great art comes from. So, can you say a few words about how will great achievements — what we know to be music, art — how will those come into being if there wasn't that pain, that well of suffering?

BK:  Well, actually, when we create, and where these people have created from, it has been out of a clear mind, a free-flowing mind, creativity just flowing nonstop. That's why it's so beautiful. In those moments, there is no pain. There's only art. So some of those artists, are artists because that's the only time they are free, their mind is freed up. But when they're not doing their art, they have miserable lives because they're trapped inside their head. And art is what inspires them because it's a pain-free environment, and it shows on the canvas. [ oh wow. that's a nice connection ]

So we don't need pain to be creative. In fact, it's limiting. If you look at yourself. There's times that you've done things that you've absolutely loved, you haven't been suffering, you were freed up.

N:  I was lost in it. Yea in fact I have a beautiful remembrance of playing with blocks (age 4-5). And I don't know where that time went. [Yea] It's gone, you know. [ Yea] Yea. It's living in the moment. Focused. And not even intentionally focused. It's just focused. Speaking of kids, what's been your experience doing the Work with kids — I've read that you have. [Yes] How’s that been for you? Are they able to understand?

BK:  Oh absolutely, absolutely. And it's not in such a formal context with little kids. They say, “Well nobody likes me!" And you say, “Oh honey, are you sure? — oh, how does that feel to be so rejected, tell me?"  That's the 3rd question. “Sweetheart, remember just a few minutes ago when we were laughing and you weren't thinking that thought? What was that like? Look at the difference." They get it so quicky. So then the turnaround would be “Let's find one person that likes you? Let's find one. You find one and I'll find one." So they find the turnarounds. So children are very very good. So parents who have the Work alive in them, their children get it. Because it becomes part of our language, part of how we talk. But we're not “giving" them the Work, we're communicating clearly, fearlessly, openly and our children become as clear and open and honest as we are. Because they don't have to hide. [ oh yes ] Because we say, “how do you feel when you think that?" Because it's a chance to meet our children to the depths of their soul. But we're afraid to hear their pain. So we say, “oh honey, it's not so bad, here's a cookie. You know, go back to cartoons."

N:  And then we wonder why they're overweight or laying around.

BK:  Yea, ‘cause we're afraid to face their fears because we haven't faced our own. We're afraid to face their pain. Because we haven't faced our own. So, the Work is the way to do that. And ‘Loving What Is' is the way to do that. That's the text for the Work. And I call it the book of You. And people who will follow those directions, can talk to their children, communicate with their children, lower the stress in their own life. As we find our own understanding, we understand our children.

N:  I can see that. I have friends who have children, and they say you know, “Hunter said the most extraordinary thing today — he really hit the nail on the head." So yea, I can really see that about kids. I love that about kids.

Melony:  She and Stephen are currently writing a book about the Work and children.

BK:  I'm really excited.

N:  Oh, wow. So when do you expect that out?

BK:  What is it Stephen, May of next year? Yes.

N:  Will it be illustrated?

BK:  You know, it could be — Stephen writes children’s books and they win amazing awards for illustration and the stories — beautiful books.

N:  This would be like geared to an adult reader on doing the Work with children?

BK:  Yes it would so it wouldn't really be an illustrated book.

N:  Oh I see. That sounds like fun.

BK:  Yea. Parenting and children. I'm considering calling it Child's Play. [ ooh!s ]

I don't know.

N:  ...oh... my button came off...  In A Thousand Names for Joy, which I'm still reading actually, one of my favorite parts is about the ants — do you remember that one off the top of your head?

BK:  Well I think there's a couple stories about the ants. Which one is it?

N:  When you talk about the ants that are on you — and you start to — [ oh the ant hotels? ] Yea, and then you pick them off, and then you ask your daughter to go get the ant hotel! — I love that because I got into a semi — a little squabble, no big deal —  with my partner — he was like, he just loves to kill the moths that are in a room, and I'm coming from a uhm, quasi/pseudo “spiritual" whatever standpoint and I'm like interrogating him: “Well hey, what did those little guys ever do to you?!" So... I love that illustration as like a type of turnaround.

BK:  It is. To kill you is to kill me. And, there it is.

N:  Yea. That was pretty amazing. Do you often — if you're with an animal what do you see when you're with an animal?

BK:  You mean, just hanging out with a dog? [Yes ] I just adore them. I just love watching, observing, I can just get lost in that. They're marvelous teachers. Like a dog, you can say “go away" and just kick them and they'll keep coming back going **mimicks panting**. So they teach unconditional love. And I love that. And then a cat, you can go **mimicks panting** to the cat, and it'll just walk off.

N:  And that's what I love about cats!  **laughter**

BK:  They're our teachers. They're parts of us. They're all pieces of us.

N:  And that's where, you know, I notice you and Stephen describe the work as a meditation, and meditation as a practice is kind of reaching the mainstream — what do you see as the benefits or the pitfalls of meditation as a practice — you know, the old-school “I'm gonna clear my mind out" exercise?

BK:  Well it's — it — I can't say what it is for others. I think it's just probably noticing what's in the space. And maybe it can be about voiding thoughts and sitting in silence and clearing the mind. Whereas in the Work I'm inviting people to being the meditation with “he doesn't care about me" — is that true? And then sit in *that* space, allowing whatever is there to surface. Just inviting it. So it's more like a guided meditation. [ Aha, I see. ] Like, “Is it true?" is a guided meditation. And, “can I absolutely know that it's true to say?” All four questions. And the turnaround also is meditation. “He doesn't care about me" — turned around: “He does care about me" and to get still and sit in that. And allow those experiences of caring to surface, rather than fighting them away, avoiding them, dismissing them. As long as we do that with our thoughts, we do it with people. Because they're going to say what we don't want to hear. So to work with the thoughts in our heads is to work with the whole world.

N:  And that's so interesting because sometimes I think my mind is trying to come to understand it very intellectually... Like, if I'm me — you know, the world as projection — if I'm — I'm sorry;  if you're me, and I'm you — I just — it just, it starts to kind of fry my mind!... which you know, I guess is how it goes.

BK:  Well, yea. And that's like a theory [ — I know — ] and a concept until it's realized. [ Yes ] So I love inviting people to start where I did:  on the ground, in the dirt, and to just start from what we're believing — and to start right there, no matter how “unspiritual" it may seem to us to be. You know, for me everything is God, there's no higher or lower thought... just to meet them all.

N:  Yea, that resonates with me somehow. Because I've read texts and I've read many things of what people say what it means to be Enlightened, and yet no one knows what that is...

BK:  Well, I can tell you my version.

N:  *nods* I'd love to hear it.

BK:  The end of suffering. And... sanity. And if someone said “Katie, you're Enlightened", I'd have no way to know if that's true. And to dwell on it would be crazy. Because it — it's a focus on me, me, me — I, I — so it's just marvelous to work to notice what hurts and what doesn't — and to work with what hurts. And that's the thing: to note the difference between what hurts and what doesn't — and all of us know that, we all have that, we know. So. That's what the Work is about. Just — It's for all of us.  [ Yes ]

We can all do it.  Like that sweet woman who was out there, my goodness she would answer the questions and then just take it from herself. You know with the “yea, buts" — and “Well um, I was um, unkind to him here, but he deserved it over here.” So it's just to answer the questions and be in the turnarounds without the ‘ands' [ without all the “but's" butting in our heads ] Yea. Without all the defenses and the justifications.

N:  Yea, I notice it's a real simple thing but I think it's kind of beautiful — sometimes I think in this book and in other books you say for example, “Yes I love you... and, I'd like to leave you now." [ Yea ] I love that it's not a “but".

BK:  Yea. It's like “I love you with all my heart & I need to leave now." I'm very clear.

N:  It's a small thing but that “and" can add a lot. It's real nice.

BK:  Yes it is.

N:  Can you say a little about what is the School for the Work like?

BK:  Incredible. So Steve, what is the School for the Work like?

Steve Hardison:  Today in fact, happens to be my one-year anniversary having gone to it. [ Oh nice. ] A year ago today. [ Oh nice. ] [ Cheers ] **clank clank clank clank clank of glasses** And I thought it was — and I took my wife — and I thought it was the most extraordinary experience I've ever had in my life. Just extraordinary in looking at who I am as a human being. How to actually increase my personal peace, and to be present with my wife and my children. It was powerful. And then I had such a great experience going to that, that later in the same year in October, I took 21 of my clients with me and we spent nine days in her School. That's how good it was.

BK:  And it's early morning to laaaaate at night. *laughter*

N:  I know, it sounds like boot camp — in a fun way — I've always had a good, a positive association with boot camp **laughter** — I love the idea.

BK:  It is. In a most amazing fun way you could ever imagine. Because I like to say we are our favorite topic and subject. So it's so exciting to break the spell of pain.

N:  Yea, we are our favorite subject. I love that you say that. I...I... feel it! **laughter**

BK:  So that's why I call it the School of You. My books are about the Book of You, and my School is about the School of You.

N:  Speaking of, I have to say I'm really enjoying A Thousand Names for Joy and kudos to you guys. [ Thank you. ] ‘Cause to me the book reads like a long prose poem. [ That's, that's —  **points to Stephen, smiles, high fives** ] **we 3 high-five**

BK:  It's a marvelous work. A marvelous work. It was my raw material, but Stephen's prose are amazing. [ Stephen: I cooked her. ] [ You cooked her? ] [ Stephen: Yea. ] [ You marinated her... ] Yea, he cooked me. It's like he can take 3 pages of what I say and say it in a few prose (verse) and not change the meaning, not the slightest bit, not to touch the integrity of it and to keep it, it's amazing.

N:  Wow. Yea. Sounds like you had fun doing it too.

BK:  Well he does the hard part. He just... reads “XYZ — how do you relate to that?" In other words, he would read the Tao and then I would just give him my experience.

N:  And so you had not read the Tao?

BK:  No.

N:  Well, this is great you guys! This is wonderful...

BK:  I love that you get it. I just love that you get it. **little happy peals of laughter all around**

N:  Yea. I've... yea. Yea, it's interesting. I sense that I've gotten it on different levels at different times in my life. Kinda like almost like an archeological excavation, like you gotta dig, and then it's like, "oh! there you are! oh... I knew that." Yea. [ Yea. Good for you. ] Thank you Katie.

Steve:  The School is a way to immerse yourself actually to experience You. You immerse yourself in the Work and then you discover what is you and what's not.

N:  I'd love to experience it and maybe it will happen.